Will You Walk With Me?
"Be sure of this - that I am with you always, even to the end of the world." Jesus says this in the 28th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew when He tells the disciples that He will be with them as they go out into the world and face the many challenges that will occur as they travel on their journey.
Was this a story just for a select group of people at a particular time and place or does it apply to us today?
Have you ever taken one step forward and then taken two steps back? Or maybe 3 or 4 steps back?
Have you ever struggled to pick yourself up when you are in the depths of depression or anxiety?
Have you ever asked yourself, does anyone really care about me?
I'm sure we have all felt that way at one time or another and when we are in those spaces, we can feel isolated, cut off from family, friends, from everyone.
When we feel isolated, we start to wonder if we can ever really overcome the pain and isolation. We wonder if God is really there for me.
Join us, on Will You Walk With Me?, where we will explore ways to strengthen our faith through caring for our mental and physical health. We will do this in community, learning from those who join our episodes to share their stories, and through exploring ways to increase creativity and positive self esteem, while in the process studying sacred scriptural texts that can support your journey.
So I ask you, Will You Walk With Me?
Will You Walk With Me?
Rolling Dice, Unleashing Potential: Exploring Personal and Spiritual Growth
Embark on a journey of discovery where the rolling of dice ignites personal transformation and community bonding. Together with my insightful producers, Andrew and Catherine, we unravel the dynamic world of role-playing games, particularly Dungeons & Dragons, and how they unlock creativity, provide therapeutic benefits, and foster spiritual growth. Weaving personal tales with expert commentary, our episode serves as a testament to the empowering nature of RPGs in shaping lives and nurturing connections.
Have you ever imagined yourself as someone else, in a world where dragons soar and magic thrives? Our conversation dives into the heart of character creation and game dynamics, where Catherine introduces you to Zanros Bemblebomble, her quirky rock gnome with dreams bigger than her stature. Andrew and Catherine chime in with their rich experiences, highlighting how the limitless narratives of RPGs reflect life's triumphs and tribulations, offering a playground for learning and self-expression within a safe communal space.
We reflect on the profound impact of D&D on Andrew and Catherine's personal and spiritual journeys. It's not just about the game; it's about the lessons learned, the confidence built, and the support of a community that champions each member's growth. Tune in for an episode that's not just a conversation but an invitation to explore the depths of your own imagination and the potential for profound change that comes with it.
Welcome back. This is episode five of Will you Walk With Me, and I'm so excited today because we are going to have guests. Andrew and Catherine, my producers, are going to be guests in our time together. But before we get started and welcome them, let me check in. How are you today? What do you bring to this time together?
Speaker 1:I know it's been a while since we last got together, so let's take a moment to think about our last walk that we took. We talked about mindfulness. Mindfulness, which has to do with examining who we are and cultivating appreciation for the fullness of each precious moment in which we are alive. Most of all, it has to do with being present, recognizing and being more in touch with the depths of your mind and your heart, and being in a place of peace and kindness in a sometimes crazy and painful world. Take a breath in, let it out, take a moment to appreciate yourself. You are special. You are a child of God, made in God's image and loved, loved, loved by God, just the way you are. Take one more breath in and let it out and let it out.
Speaker 1:Today's walk is going to focus on purpose and the support of community that very important support. A few weeks ago, I found myself listening to NPR, national Public Radio. There was a very interesting story about children in a middle school in Massachusetts. There are many studies out now on the impact of the pandemic isolation on children in different age cohorts. These particular children, who are now in Brown Middle School, were in the fourth grade in 2020 when the country went into lockdown. Their ability to carry on with their academics through Zoom was truly a gift from God, in my opinion, but there's no denying that the lack of learning in person created deficits in social learning and interaction. In this school, they focus on creative ways to bring purpose and life skills to the educational process Each day. For example, eighth graders take charge of the school announcements for students and staff alike. They determine the order of announcements and how to weave the school's new motto let go and move on into the culture of the entire school family.
Speaker 1:School principal Kim Lysak said in an interview that bumps in life are inevitable and these middle school students are children who are beginning to look at the challenges and opportunities of adulthood. Principal Lysak sees that some children tend to hold on to things that make them angry or embarrassed and they can't move forward either academically or socially. She tells them tomorrow is a new day with new opportunities. When situations happen, children are brought together and they talk things out. That is part of the purpose, the purpose of building relationships, because relationships aren't easy to build and they are fluid and they are confusing at times. Giving the opportunity to create and lead in adult activities, along with a focus on bringing students together to talk openly about life challenges in a safe environment, gives them intentional activities that help develop self-confidence and compassion for themselves and others. Is this focus on relationships and owning the creative process something only children can participate in? Is this a need that was only brought on because of the pandemic? For me, of course, the answer to both questions is no. I think that no matter what age you are, we all have the need to step out of our comfort zones and reach out to another person. Also, I think the pandemic isolation just shined a bright light on an already existing challenge.
Speaker 1:In our last walk together, we looked at a more solitary practice mindfulness, even though I have practiced mindfulness in groups before but in this walk, we will focus more directly on community. More directly on community. In Galatians 6, 2 through 3, the Apostle Paul writes live creatively, friends. If someone falls into sin, forgivingly restore him, saving your critical comments for yourself. You might be needing forgiveness yourself before the day is out. Stoop down and reach out to those who are oppressed, share their burdens and complete. That was taken from the message translation. Brown Middle School is intentionally working at creating an environment which helps take their students to a higher level in social activities and relationship building. But what about for adults? What opportunities are there for us? Today, we're going to take a look at something very creative that focuses on relationships.
Speaker 1:Among other things, it is the playing of role-playing games, or RPGs. To be honest, until the last month or so, I never knew too much about this world. I knew that Andrew and Catherine, my producers, were very involved in RPGs, and it is because they started a podcast of their own called Legends, loot and Lure that we have the opportunity to make the podcast walks that we offer. Andrew and Catherine are members of my church family and they came to me with the idea of offering a podcast almost a year ago. They donate their time and equipment for each episode and we are very blessed by their ministry.
Speaker 1:Probably the most famous RPG is Dungeons Dragons. It was very popular in the 70s and 80s and is making a comeback, as evidenced and being offered in schools as part of after-school club activities. D&d Dungeons Dragons is not the only RPG out there. There are many others, both secular and Christian. One of the most popular Christian ones is called the Holy Lands. To be honest, I haven't ever participated in an RPG. I want to at some point, just to have the experience. But what interested me for now is not so much the technicalities of playing the game, but the significant amount of research surrounding RPGs as part of therapy in community. Please remember that as we continue our walk today, rpgs or any other practice that we might share is not a substitute for a journey with a licensed therapist, but can definitely complement your process. But can definitely complement your process. I'm going to give you a little background and then we will talk with Andrew and Catherine and invite them to share their story. My research led me to several articles and a really cool book called Tabletop Role-Playing Therapy a Guide for Clinician Game Masters by Megan A McConnell. For Clinician Game Masters by Megan A McConnell.
Speaker 1:The Family Therapy Health Network highlights the fact that most diagnosed and undiagnosed mental health disorders have in common a way that they hijack a person's ability to experience joy, playing or simply being with others. While focus on children with this challenge is very high in these years since the pandemic isolation, we can't forget that there are many adults suffering as well. Through play, people can safely explore challenges, challenge their thoughts and beliefs and work on creative solutions. What is a growing field of study is the impact on negotiators who are preparing for major negotiation sessions. They focus on role-playing activities where they not only play their own role or character we'll talk about that later but also take turns in playing the parts of the counter negotiator, so that they have a clear understanding of the thoughts, interests and needs of the other person. This focused opportunity is used in business, critical peace talks, life or death hostage negotiations, as well as planning for military actions. Role play helps us to define relationships within ourselves and others. It requires imagination, impulse, control, frustration, tolerance, cognitive adaptability, and it offers the individual a place to work on parts of their lives in a supportive community environment.
Speaker 1:The Family Therapy Health Network actually created their own RPG and called it Legends of Lorem, susan Harriman from the University of Chicago at Loyola, says that the potential for dramatic rehearsal and civic outcomes in tabletop RPGs describes some of the opportunities that RPGs offer. She writes that the adjective of tabletop comes from the fact that these games intend for a group of people to gather together around a table and play together collaboratively and synchronously while sharing that space. Aaron Hollander defines tabletop RPGs primarily as group storytelling, with each player responsible for the actions of a character of their own design. Everyone responds to and, with narrated action, to the effects of the decisions that are made through a flexible system of rules and probability mechanisms. Players take responsibility for acting these roles out within a narrative through either literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.
Speaker 1:Actions taken within games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. While they take any number of permeations. The game with the largest cultural footprint is D&D. However, d&d is only one game amongst a multitude. Not all have a fantasy setting or focus on combat. Not all tabletop RPGs require a 20-sided die or any die at all, and there are as many settings and subject matters as there are genres of any art form. Hollander says that tabletop RPGs are rooted in a focus on unrehearsed and unrepeatable narratives through a collaborative, improvisational storytelling narrative, and that they are distinguished by their participatory quality, not only in the imaginative buy-in of the audience, but in their very existence, being generated primarily for the benefit of those taking part. So it brings me great joy to welcome to you my friends, my parishioners and my especially in this context producers andrew and katherine. Hi there, hello, it's so good to have you here.
Speaker 2:It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Yay, and I want to keep digging into this. So, like I've done the research on you know, obviously there's more research to be done, but I've read a lot. I've looked at different books and articles. But now I want to hear from your heart, I want to get right in behind the scenes on how all of this works.
Speaker 2:I'll try not to geek out too much, but well, geek out a little. Okay.
Speaker 1:All right. So I just gave this big discussion here about some of the research. Did I do a good job?
Speaker 2:job. I think you did a great job. There's so much benefit, I think, to role-playing games and it's really just like how this podcast is doing it. They're really just starting to scratch the surface of what the therapeutic benefits are of role-playing in general. It doesn't have to be D&D, it could be literally anything, but the research into it is really just in its infancy. Still, this is one of the first books out there about the topic, so, yeah, they're really just starting to get a handle on what the actual therapeutic benefits are to encountering scenarios in a role-playing environment.
Speaker 1:Do you think that there is an age range? Now, I mentioned in my children's high school. This is part of the after-school program one of the opportunities. How young do you think you could be to start any type of role-playing game?
Speaker 2:Well, you're going to say something, Darren.
Speaker 3:I was going to say. I think you only have to be old enough to understand the rules to some extent, right?
Speaker 2:have to be old enough to understand the rules to some extent, right, yeah, I mean they make D&D for little kids without all the complex rules and everything, with just some of the basic concepts. I mean kids know how to role play. I mean they play, dress up and pretend to be people all the time, so it's not a far-fetched thing, I think, for them. I think it's harder for adults to to to get into that, that kind of environment. Um, but one of the people we interviewed on the podcast, ryan McLaughlin, I mean he does it in middle school, like for for therapeutic reasons, for purposes, so um't think there's, I don't think there's any age limitation. It's just how, what, the what, the therapeutic benefits of that may be, maybe middle school, I mean I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know, I don't know, I'm not to say so.
Speaker 2:it's hard for me to say, but he's definitely had some great experience using D&D in a middle school environment as kind of a therapeutic resource.
Speaker 1:So on the other side, have you had any experience with playing this game with someone who is a senior citizen?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I mean so D&D got its start in 1973. So there probably are senior citizens that are playing D&D at this point. Would be my guess. I've never had the honor to play with someone in that demographic, but I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1:And the re. So I ask about kids first, because I'm really captivated by the work that the Brown middle school is doing. But in terms of an older person, they would bring more life, life experience to the game. Am I right sure? Yeah yeah, and that would affect character development and and all the other aspects of the game. So it actually might be a really interesting experience if the person is able to let go and become part of the process to to have them be a part of any particular group activity with this game.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's it's. It's that role-playing concept that that I don't say a lot of people but, but some people definitely struggle with. I mean, cause you're, you're playing, you have to think like your character and act like your character. So it's sometimes, sometimes that can be the biggest hurdle to to come over. So, while while older, while people even of our generation have have more experience, sometimes it's we're further away from those kids who are used to playing, you know so. So sometimes it's hard to jump over that that hurdle. So and there's, with all that life experience just becomes more trauma and and other things to deal with. So so there's a lot more to unpack over time. Um, as you, as you get older and yet I think um.
Speaker 3:We attended packs unplugged in december of last year and I mean, you had a really wide range of age groups there. So there certainly are. Oh so, pax Unplugged. Reverend Kathy is looking at me like what is Pax Unplugged?
Speaker 3:Pax Unplugged is a giant. It's board games, rpg games convention. So they had a panel about Critical Role, which is a pretty well-known now um group that plays D&D online and you can watch them on YouTube and all sorts of stuff Twitch and YouTube over the place and showing you how to play different games, and I mean it was a huge event. There were tables and tables and tables of people just playing RPGs and doing what they call one shots, which are pretty short RPG games so you can get them done in one sitting, and I feel like there was a really wide range of ages there. Sure.
Speaker 2:There were yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Probably fewer kids than I'm accustomed to seeing at a convention, but I would say a lot more older people than I would have anticipated yes, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely right okay, so uh-oh yes how did you both get started?
Speaker 2:started it was it was may, yeah, so, um. So I had a friend that was a former co-worker. We became friends um after I think after I'd left that company. We were both doing our own thing. One day he said to me he goes, would you have any interest in playing Dungeons and Dragons? And so for me, my experience with Dungeons and Dragons was growing up. I knew people who said they played the game. I'd never seen the game played before. I understood kind of the concept of it. I knew it was a role-playing game and that kind of thing. So it's always something that I was kind of aware of and always curious about, but never had the opportunity. No one ever invited me to play before. So this was in, I want to say like 2017? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Probably about 2017. And he was, like you know, would you be interested in playing? And I'm like, sure I'd love to play. I have no clue what I'm doing, but I'd love to try. So that's how it started. And we sat down, went through, he gave me the basic rule book, so I started reading the rules to understand how the game was played, created my first character and and all that kind of fun stuff. But that's how, that's how it, that's how it entered into our, our lives.
Speaker 3:And then, catherine, you can tell yeah, so the friend who brought Andrew into it, who has become a good friend of both of us, wanted to try playing, instead of being the DM, the dungeon master. So he wanted to do a character so that he could role play. And he asked if I would be interested in DMing and honestly I was not, but I love these people so I did it and I really didn't enjoy that part of it. Um, but I am now playing in a game that we do for the podcast and I am playing a character rather than being the dungeon master, and I actually love it. So what's your character's name?
Speaker 1:uh, zanrose, bemble, bumble yes, could you slow that down?
Speaker 3:please, that's zanrose bemble bumble she is a rock gnome and her goal in life is to open a bed and breakfast. The bemble bumble b and b I love it. I love it and that that you know and that that's part of, I think, the beauty of the game. Right like um andrew and our, our friend Joe, created the character for the podcast and then Joe was going to play Zanros but stepped away from being able to do it because he's getting married. So he's very busy right now.
Speaker 3:So I took over and all I had was this is the character, here are her general traits, and as we were going through what they call a session zero, where you sort of build out like what are your character's motivations, what are they going to do, how is this going to play out, I said, wouldn't it be funny if she wanted to open a B&B? Because her name is Bumble Bumble and it has grown into a whole thing Like her sole purpose in life now is to get enough gold to open her bed and breakfast.
Speaker 1:Interesting, yes, interesting. I think I'm going to skip a couple of questions here and go to this one.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, if I have it right, game Master, or Dungeon Master in the D&D case, sets up the big picture of the story, yep, story of the game, and then participants choose characters. What goes into setting up a character, and can someone have more than one character?
Speaker 2:oh, that's, that's, that's a good question. Yeah, so typically in an adventure one person plays one character. That's kind of a.
Speaker 3:Unless something happens to their character, and then they can't be another character, but at a time.
Speaker 2:They're playing one character at a time. There is the potential for character death, just as in real life. So there are real life stakes there that your character could die, things that you create. They're changing the term what's been known as race in D&D. You pick a race. So are you a human? Are you an elf? That type of thing? They're changing it to call it species to be more inclusive.
Speaker 2:But, basically, who are you? What type of character are you? Um, race and then class. So I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this up on my screen so I can go through this. So there are 12 classes and this, this, this helps define kind of who you, who you are as well. Are you a barbarian? Are you a big, like aggressive, fighter? Are you a druid? Are you more tapped into nature? Are you a cleric, someone that heals? Are you a healer? Are you you could be a sorcerer or a wizard casting spells? So there's all sorts of different classes that you can choose from. So those are race, class and then you can choose your background from there. Those are some of the key building blocks to a character, kind of how you want them to be. Like I've built a human wizard. There are, like I said I'm Like I've built a human wizard. There are, there are. Like I said, I'm going to geek out a little bit.
Speaker 1:So there's, all sorts.
Speaker 2:There's all sorts of races in D and D. There are I've, I've played a feline and what what is known as a tabaxi. That's the race in D and D. But you can. I mean there there are vampires. I mean, there are vampires, there are. Well, there's lizard folk, there's dragonborn, there's all sorts of things you can be. So you can be almost anything you could possibly want to be who is not yourself, and there are a lot of inherent traits to each race. So a lot of times, again, some are more nature-based. So again, depending on what kind of character you want to create, it could be someone very much like you. You can put a lot of yourself into the character. You can also, if you want to create the character similar to a fictional hero or something like that, you can do that as well. So there's all sorts of ways of building the character, but race, class and kind of background are some of the basic building blocks.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:There's way more than that, but that's the basic basic.
Speaker 1:Sorry, no no, no, that's good. I mean, we'd be here all night.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:Kind of a thing if we went into the whole depth of it.
Speaker 2:We spent multiple episodes on our podcast about going into this. So, yeah, you could really talk well into the night on that Legends loot going into this. So, yeah, you could. You could really talk, talk well into the night on on that.
Speaker 1:Legends, loot and lure.
Speaker 3:If you want to learn more about the technical stuff about the game, yes, and the whole idea of it is that it's for beginners, so it really is a great way to start if you're looking to get involved in the game we go. We start with the.
Speaker 2:ABCs of D&D, go through a lot of the basic terminology and then we literally walk through building a character. We walk through the basic races, the basic classes, et cetera. So you could literally listen through the episodes and build a character as you go.
Speaker 1:Excellent. How many people are involved in your particular game?
Speaker 3:There's four of us. So for the podcast, yeah, game there's four of us.
Speaker 2:So for the podcast, yeah, there's four of us. There's me as the, as the, the dm right, the dungeon master, and we have three, three characters that that play and okay, so there's the four of you.
Speaker 1:If say, I wanted to join your game, sure could I join it now, or do I have to wait till you end?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely you can we have. It's interesting. So I, I play in multiple games and for, for example, our Wednesday night game um, not everybody can make it every night so. So it's just a question of who can show up and then whoever can play that night kind of plays together. So it's just a question of who can show up and then whoever can play that night kind of plays together, and the DM will sometimes play the character, the people who are absent. He'll play their characters for them. So if there's a battle or something and they've got a fight, he can roll the dice for them on their behalf.
Speaker 2:And people come, people go, some people move on and say I can't play anymore. Like Joe got engaged and is getting married, so his time is focused elsewhere. So other people can jump in and add a character to the party, and that's part of the fun of it. Then the DM and the new person kind of create the story. Well, how does this person meet the rest of the party? So you tie, you work together to tie all that in, so you can, people can join all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when I decided that I didn't want to DM our campaign anymore, joe said he would take over, and first he took the character that he was playing and had him ride off to single-handedly battle the vampire that was the bad guy in this particular story and, um, when his character rode off, it freed him to step into the dm uh seat again. So yeah, I mean it's part of the creativity of the game, is that really? It's as flexible as you want it to be it's's highly flexible, yeah.
Speaker 1:Can't if you can give me a short synopsis of a particular campaign, not not necessarily Cal, like what's the, what's the thing that the DM presents to you to you.
Speaker 2:So, before we jump into that, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll preface it by saying this so, there, there, there's really two ways for a DM to to start a campaign. Um, the producers, the, the company, that which at the moment is Hasbro that owns the, the company that creates all the D and D content.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was Hasbro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they create a lot of books. They publish a lot of pre-built adventures so you can pull a book off the shelf and run an adventure that way. So you're given kind of the whole story, the plot line, and then the characters play within that environment. Um, there's also what is known as homebrew, which is the dm makes up their own story, they, they create the entire world themselves. So they create anything that's not a player character. Yeah, they create all the other people you interact with the storyline. Everything is their own imagination.
Speaker 1:Is it all like medieval stuff?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. Some of it's in.
Speaker 1:you can be in space, you can be A little Star Trek thing going on here. Yeah, there is a.
Speaker 2:Star Trek version of Really Of like D&D, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:NASA released their own campaign.
Speaker 2:NASA released their own NASA.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh my God, a bunch of NASA scientists. What is it? The the dragon steals the Hubble telescope.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the dragon. The dragon steals the Hubble telescope and you've got to go rescue it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so a bunch of scientists figure out what's going on, and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm just we're just blowing your mind, aren't we? Yes, yes, that was not in my reading.
Speaker 3:I didn't see that in the book I I feel like um, our next door neighbor, plays um with a group in their high school and I feel like their plots are very romance driven, which you wouldn't really think about for dnd, but that is part of it as well. Okay, so it really, like I said, can be as flexible as you want it to be, can be as wide as your imagination. Really 100.
Speaker 2:There is. I. I dm'd for a little while. There was a whole um campaign from from dungeons and dragons called strixhaven, which was a universe, which was all based in a university of magic.
Speaker 3:Like Harry Potter thing. Yeah, like an adult.
Speaker 2:Harry Potter, like Harry Potter goes to college. Yeah, yeah, okay, back to school with Rodney Dangerfield. I love that movie, but magic.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, I mean, there's really anything that you part of. The reason that when I was DMing that Joe chose the campaign that he did was because it was vampires and I love vampires, like that's just my thing.
Speaker 3:And you love Buffy the vampire, I do love Buffy the vampire slayer, um, and he thought that would be great. What we didn't know at the time and this is another piece of it is that some of the books are way more structured than others. So the book that he had been using previously was very structured. It said you do this, you do this, you do this. Strahd was all over the place, which was Curse of.
Speaker 3:Strahd is the vampire one, so it was really difficult for me, as somebody who had really never played before, to understand what I was doing on any given day. So I was learning, you know, the mechanics of the game, the rules of the game, and then also trying to have enough completed for the group to have something to do every time we played. It was. It was a tough one, so I think that that's a piece of it, too.
Speaker 3:Like, how much of it, do you want to use your creativity and how much would you like them to lay out? As much as you can, although you're always going to get thrown curve balls because your party never does what you think they're going to do. They don't, and I mean that happens within the party itself too, too, which is an interesting piece of it. Um, you know we play. When we play for the podcast, we play with a good friend of ours and our next door neighbor and um, james goes off the rails sometimes and even I am like, uh, dude, what are we doing? That's not what we just talked about before we got into this, but he's being creative.
Speaker 3:Exactly, but he's frequently just wreaking havoc.
Speaker 2:And that's when we talk about this as a therapeutic resource. That's the thing I mean. You have there's so much that you have to think about because you have a party of people that are very independently minded. You need to act together, you need to work together to solve a problem, but you've got potentially no idea what the other people are going to do in your party, so you've got to be able to. It's very interesting to see how people react to situations, because we have I've had situations where, like this one guy, well, for example, so we were just in a campaign, in a game the other night and, like a dragon, I play a dwarf.
Speaker 2:So I'm a very short character, I'm a soldier, so I've been in the war, something. Yeah, catherine told me I'm a little character, something like that. So, anyway, this dragon like comes up to me and was like you look delicious because I'm very tall, I'm very tiny and I look like food. I'm very tall, I'm very tiny and I look like food. So I took my weapon and, like hit the dragon on the nose, which which, like everybody else, was like bad idea, bad idea.
Speaker 2:But it's exactly what my character would have done, because my my character doesn't like is very kind of like, if somebody attacks him, he's going to, he's going to step up to it. So so it's very interesting because literally you should have seen the reaction of everybody else. They were just like wait, why did you do that? Like we're all going to die. And that's not what happened. The dragon kind of just took a step back and was like, oh okay.
Speaker 1:So you stood up to the dragon? Yeah, exactly, you stood up to the dragon and that's a very interesting point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:As we look at. I mean, we could talk all night, as you try to explain to me all the intricate details of the game.
Speaker 1:Do you at all take into account things that you might want to work on quote unquote, work on in your life, that you could use this as a testing ground? You know you just stood up to the big bad bully, Not asking you particularly if this is something you want to work on in your life, but if someone is having issues with standing up for themselves, could they use this game as a testing ground to learn how to do it?
Speaker 2:100%, oh yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3:I mean I can talk about it from the perspective of Zanros Bumble Bumble. I mean it was a character that was handed to me but I've infused a lot of myself into her because I saw pieces of that. But I think the place where she's really great for me is that I am able to be tough and to kind of forge ahead no matter what. And those are the things where people talk a lot about imposter syndrome, right. And when you go into the workplace, you know you feel like, oh, what am I doing here? Like, am I good enough to do this?
Speaker 3:And Zanros, as a character, has no doubt in what she wants to do. She's of noble birth but she wants to branch out from her family and open this bed and breakfast on her own. And it's that single-minded toughness that I think I sort of take when I go into the office and try to shake off that imposter syndrome and go, yeah, I'm good enough to do this, I can, you know, obviously, like syndrome, and go, yeah, I'm good enough to do this, I can, you know, obviously, like, I know what I'm doing. And and Zanros Zanros can be a little bit of a rage monster sometimes, but it's great for me because it lets me kind of blow off steam in a way that I certainly can't in an office environment.
Speaker 1:Fascinating, fascinating.
Speaker 3:Especially in office environment, where I've been described as bubbly and sweet. So I really can't go in there and yell at people.
Speaker 1:But you can.
Speaker 3:As Zanros, absolutely she has her own voice and everything Like I do a voice I she sometimes gets really mad and she is not afraid to stand up for herself in ways where sometimes I'm in the office and you know you have that moment where you're like I don't know this person, it's awkward to reach out to them, like it kind of gives me a little bit of that like well, I have to, so let's do it interesting, interesting yeah, the character, and even like my character in my Monday night game, thoradin the the dwarf, um, he is, I'm trying to remember he's like like 150 years old, he's, he's, he's been, he's, he's been around the block and he's he's seen a lot of stuff in his life and, like I use, I use that kind of I think, of a little bit of like dannyver in.
Speaker 1:Lethal.
Speaker 2:Weapon. I'm getting too old for this, oh man, I remember that.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 2:But for me, I can say and do things as Thoradin that I'm not comfortable maybe doing or wasn't comfortable doing in, let's say, a work environment.
Speaker 2:Standing up to a bully, you know, you know it's I, I might, I may have even done that differently, yeah, and through all my therapy and everything else, even in the game, I may not have done that the same way a year or so ago.
Speaker 2:So it's a way for me to stand up to a bully and say, hey, I'm not going to take that and see what happens, because if I mean, maybe if I were a lesser character, I would have just kind of demurred to the dragon and been like, oh no, like I'll just back away, you know, but I don't, I don't want to be that, I want to be able to stand up for myself and say, no, this is, you know, if you're going to come at me, I'm going to stand my ground. So so it's. It's been, it's been a very interesting experience kind of being able to play that out in role playing, and I think it's helped me more so in my, in my life, just being able to be that kind of person that that stands up for himself and is a little more assertive than than I might be otherwise.
Speaker 1:So that's a wonderful, and I'm, and I'm, as I'm watching them talk. So you can't see this because it's a podcast. Their eyes light up when they talk about this.
Speaker 1:There is a joy on their face. It's interesting. As a person who has no direct experience with this other than from a research perspective, I see that there is something in their lives, through this game, that is transformative for them and probably for many others, because there are lots and lots and lots and lots of people who play this game, and when I think of the concept of transformation, I mean Paul talks about it and being transformed by the word Okay and yes, we are called to that. But then from that particular transformation process, how does that branch out into other aspects? I think the Lord just provides so many opportunities for us to experience that transformative power and presence, this being one of them, and that's always a reason, you know, to be grateful. The community what happens if somebody just isn't playing nice? Now, I don't mean that their character.
Speaker 1:I mean, if their character is not supposed to be nice, that's one thing, but if it doesn't fit, have you ever had that experience? Because when you're dealing in community, things happen, experiences happen to people that change them. You may have welcomed somebody new into the group and it's like, oh God, we don't know what we were thinking of here. Have you ever had that experience?
Speaker 2:Maybe he is smiling.
Speaker 3:There is a story here somewhere. I mean, do you want to tell that story? You don't have to name names Because, if not, I know of a story as well.
Speaker 2:No, so it's interesting because there was another person that I had interviewed on Legends, lute and Lore who does that integrates D&D into the workplace environment. And you know, dealing with a difficult employee or a difficult co-worker similar situation you have a difficult party member. There are all sorts of ways to deal with that. The DM is kind of the manager of the team, so to speak. He's the one running the table. So there's all sorts of things. So there's all sorts of things. The table I don't want to sound too weird about this, but the table is a sacred space. You want to. It needs to be a safe place for everybody, because when you role play you need to be comfortable with the people that you're around.
Speaker 2:You need to feel comfortable to be able to do that, for Catherine to be able to do a voice and all that. You've got to feel comfortable at that table to be able to do those types of things. So if you have somebody that's in that group that's making others feel uncomfortable or may just be taking over, you know, like maybe you've got a party member that just likes to kill everybody that you encounter. You know there's different things like that. You know the DM needs to make sure that the game is fun for everybody. So sometimes it may be talking to that person, like the DM talking to the person and being like hey, I've gotten this feedback from other people at the table, so it's a great opportunity to deal with kind of conflict resolution.
Speaker 2:But you want to make sure that as a DM, you're making it a safe space for for everybody, because everybody again, you've got people of different backgrounds, different genders, different ethnicities you've got you've got all these different things that come to the table and everybody needs to feel like they're contributing and and and being accepted at that table. So so if you've got someone that is making that difficult or or or or making somebody feel uncomfortable, you definitely need to address it. But it's a great, great opportunity to talk to your DM, to be like hey, like I'm not feeling so, so good right now, you know, because because something else is happening, so and then the DM can just kill off that character no, I'm just kidding and he falls off a cliff.
Speaker 1:So the DM could do that? The DM could say this is what's going to happen to you, nasty person.
Speaker 2:No, I wouldn't go that far. But I would say again you deal with it as usually everybody is our friends for the most part, but one of the DM's jobs is to make the table a safe space for everybody. So if somebody doesn't feel that way, then you need to address it and either talking to that person and they change their behavior, or maybe just asking that person to leave the table. Maybe this is not the right table for them. So you can definitely ask, just like how you have a group of friends, sometimes you have to distance yourself from somebody. If they're a negative influence in your life or something like that, you know you may want to separate yourselves from them. Same thing at a dnd table. You know. If somebody is, um causing problems, you know you need to address it and and move forward likewise. Was that a lot? I felt that that was like a long answer to that.
Speaker 1:Wow, sorry no, but it's a very important topic because there's the whole concept. I mean, I know just just from being in business where you'd be in a sales meeting and you have to do role playing and straight up. Uh, you know, I have a minor in theater, okay, so acting in and of itself is part of part of me but, role-playing is like a whole other thing. Yeah, uh, it's not acting. Yes, you might create a character, but there's something in the concept of role-playing that, to me, requires safety absolutely yeah um whether it's in the boardroom or the dining room 100%.
Speaker 1:We're all sitting in their dining room by the way, yes. You know so that. So safety is a very so I'm glad you took the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To have that answer. And I know, as we're coming to a close here, if you can, if you feel comfortable and safe, if you can, if you, if you feel comfortable and safe, how has your role-playing experience in D and D? So, by the way, before I continue this question, we are all big proponents of therapy working working with a licensed therapist.
Speaker 1:So has the D&D experience helped you in your therapeutic journey and spiritual journey, I mean, and we're all parishioners in the same church together, so is there a connection, going even deeper than what we've discussed, to point on how this game affects you in these other aspects of your life to the extent that you're comfortable talking about it, mm-hmm?
Speaker 3:I mean, one of the things that I've been working on in therapy for years is being my authentic self, you know, just being able to be myself without feeling uncomfortable. And I think over the years he's tried to get me to role play on multiple occasions and I was never comfortable doing that, despite the fact that I trust my therapist. I've been seeing him for years and years. Now it's probably 15 years. I mean, it's been a long time. And I think D&D has certainly broken me out of that shell, because you know we don't have the most listeners ever, but we just hit 7,500 downloads. Yes, that's awesome. So a lot of people are listening to me. Do a stupid voice on a monthly basis.
Speaker 1:That is awesome.
Speaker 3:And, you know, it's something that I think I would have shied away from in the past, have shied away from in the past, and I think that's just another step of toward becoming that authentic self, or really like being able to embrace that authentic self that is powerful.
Speaker 1:Thanks be to God, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen, I think. I think you've made one really good point, which is something I want to say.
Speaker 3:Just the one.
Speaker 1:I knew that was coming.
Speaker 2:I love you dear. I love you dear. I love you too. No, the one thing that people find a lot easier about role-playing in something like an RPG such as D&D is that it isn't yourself. So you're playing a character. So it's not you. It may be you, you know, there may be aspects of you. I mean, you obviously embody your character, but it's not you. Again, I'm a three and a half foot dwarf, like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm three foot. I'm three foot five. I'm a rock gnome. I weigh 29 pounds.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, I'm three foot five. I'm a rock gnome. I weigh 29 pounds Right exactly Like I'm 150 years old, like it's, and somehow that makes sense. But it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I think my journey in therapy and my journey through D&D have kind of played off of each other. I went through a lot in 2023 and learned a tremendous amount in therapy and I feel like I'm able to use that in D&D. But I also feel like D&D augments what I've learned in therapy. I can kind of play it out. So the concepts that I'm working on and learning in therapy, I can kind of play out in a safe environment in D&D before I try them in real life.
Speaker 2:So my character can do something that, that, that that I've been working on in therapy, and it's much safer to do it that way than than to try to do it in front of an actual person you know either, either in relationships and friendships or work, whatever that may be. I think it's. It gives you a really safe space to try those things out and see how other people react and see what happens when you do those things. So I think there's a lot of benefit for me to playing D&D alongside my therapy and spiritually, you know I I'm, I'm always fascinated by there. There are a lot of characters that have um classes and things like that that have very spiritual aspects to them. You know whether, whether they like I'm a monk, you're a monk, so the one who wants to build the bed and breakfast is a monk.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, good, okay, got it.
Speaker 2:AKA a martial artist. Yeah that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are talented.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Zanros is a cool character, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's really interesting because I think that there is it's that same hero's journey. It's that same hero's journey, you know, like I feel like a lot of the characters that you play and things like that these stories just tell themselves over and over again. So a lot of things that happen in the Bible, like David and Goliath, which is a very common story. So it's a way to kind of almost deepen the meaning to those stories and those experiences that have happened in the Bible that you've read about. You can almost kind of play them out in a different environment so to speak.
Speaker 2:Wow, so some of that. And it's like you know you pray to the moon god, but I mean there's all sorts of different deities and things in in dungeons and dragons and on all that but, but you bring a lot of yourself to that. So there's, I think, a lot of it. Your, your spiritual journey ties into kind of your hero's journey in in D and D. You know you you'll learn a lot as as time goes on and and hopefully can apply that to real life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, One of the things that I talk about with my therapist a lot is the idea of so I struggle with my weight, and one of the things we've talked about is 12 step programs like Overeaters, Anonymous, and you know that that, that idea of a higher power and the fact that that higher power is somewhere within you, so it's not just some amorphous thing, it's how you relate to whatever that higher power is. You know, in my case it would be God, but in another person's case it might be something else. It might be a relative who's passed, who they, you know, feel very connected to, a relative who's passed, who they, you know, feel very connected to it's. It's that, that thing that you reach outside of yourself to get, and I think there's something about about role playing that allows you to connect with that otherness. I mean, I'm not a three foot five rock monk, but a rock no monk monk.
Speaker 1:But you know, Wait you're not.
Speaker 3:Who did I marry? I know Just finding out now. But you know, it allows me to be something I'm not, which allows me to connect with things in a different way, so that when I struggle to find that higher power, it kind of helps me find a different way to look at things, to say like, oh okay, this is how I can connect with God through my creativity, through my you know, just like finding that. You know Zanros is very frustrated by all of the obstacles that she's facing in this campaign and you know I think I feel the same way in life a lot of the time, right Like everything's an obstacle, nothing is easy, and it helps to connect to that. And then you know, where are you asking for help from when things get really tough for me? What am I asking for help? I'm asking God for help. So it's funny the way it just kind of like ties right back into your life every day.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. And Jesus faced so many frustrations. I think that Christians don't spend enough time I don't want to say role-playing, because that's not the right word but really digging into the fact of how Jesus was frustrated. I sometimes think that he went to the cross and one of one of the fears was oh my God, was this all worth it? Right, was this? Do they get the message? Not enough people get the message. Was this worth it? And that that's a huge burden that he took for us because he loves us, and I think, as as we well, I got, and I think, as as we well, I got.
Speaker 1:One final question, but as we bring this to a close, um, when we look at the love that God has for us, and the and, and God invites us into creativity, and that's what captivates me about all of this at this point, from a research perspective, at this point, from a research perspective, creativity is how we can open ourselves up to a deeper experience of God, whether it be this, whether it be painting, whether it be music, I mean, there's countless amounts of things that are out there. We're focusing on this tonight, but they are all opportunities to come closer into our own being, to appreciate that we are the blessed children of God and then to reach deeper and further and reach our arms out wider to receive God into our lives. So you guys have been awesome tonight. This has been so wonderful for me. I hope you had a good time too.
Speaker 2:It was fun. Thank you, it's. I mean, we do this all the time on our podcast, but it's interesting kind of being a guest on someone else's podcast, so thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, this was great.
Speaker 2:Here's the final question how do you start or find a group if you're interested. Wow, wow.
Speaker 3:I think I'm going to jump onto my computer for a second. I will say you touched on one of the ways, especially if you're younger. A lot of schools have groups now. One of the things that we've talked about on the podcast is the prevalence of D&D in pop culture, especially recently, and I think Stranger Things, the TV show, is a lot of why the resurgence has happened. It's very it's a focus in that show and it's sort of when people really got back into it and when I think you know our next door neighbor who's in their high school club mentioned that because of Stranger Things, all these people showed up for the D and D. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Um, so I think for school aged kids, school is a good place to do it. Andrew, I think, has discovered whatever he was looking for, so I've killed enough time.
Speaker 2:No, there, there there's a. There's a couple of things online, but there is. There are numerous ways to to get involved in the game. So, thanks to COVID, there was a lot of tools that were created. You could play a game online with others, but places to look are your local game store. So if you have a local game store, a lot of the times they run games there for beginners and things like that.
Speaker 2:Facebook. There are tons of groups, local groups, online. There's numerous New Jersey, since we're based in New Jersey. There are numerous New Jersey groups. There's Northern New Jersey, southern New Jersey, the mythical Central New Jersey, uh, d and D groups. So there there's all sorts of D and D. There's Bergen County D and D. There's.
Speaker 2:You can you can find local groups of people that are always looking to add somebody to a table. So there's always people saying, hey, you know, we're looking for another player, we're, we're playing X night and the one. The one thing I will highly recommend is is try out different, different DMS with a group. So don't don't feel like if you, if you tried it once and and didn't click with the group, don't, don't give up because it's just different DMS have different styles and obviously it's like finding a group of friends, so so be be open-minded to, to giving it some time to to find it out, but you can. There is dndbeyondcom, which is the online version of all the rule books. You can download the free rule book, the basic rules, so if you want to start reading about it, you can go there. But yeah, you can find games almost anywhere.
Speaker 1:Cool, very cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, I want to close out with something from the Message Paul's letter to the Romans in the 12th chapter. He says don't burn out, keep yourselves fueled, and of a flame Be alert, servants of God, cheerfully expectant. Don't quit in hard times, help needy Christians and be inventive in hospitality. That sounds like a lot of what we've talked about tonight and I again am so grateful. Thank you so much for being on. Will you walk with me and for everyone else out there? My prayers go with you until we meet again. Invest in yourself, take time to be with the Lord and see where God leads you. You are worth it.
Speaker 1:I'm inviting you to walk with me on this journey again at our next meeting, a journey to know the life-giving, restoring power of God, and I am always honored to walk with you. I hope that you will join me in our next episode and I want to be sure that you know that if you are in need of professional help which we all treasure in our journey and you don't know what to do, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It's accessible by calling 1-800-273-TALK, which is 8255. Or there's a three-digit code, 988, the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, designed to be a memorable and quick number that connects people who are in any other mental health crisis to a trained professional, any other mental health crisis to a trained professional. If you would like to reach out to us, please send us a note.
Speaker 1:At podcast, at will you walk with mecom. And again, thank you, andrew and Catherine, and to all of you for listening. I pray for each of you that you see the hand of Jesus extended, knowing you are a child of God. Grab onto that hand, be transformed, be creative and know that in the process you have a blessed partner for the journey forward. We'll see you soon. Bye.